Tuesday, February 16, 2010

Good Time to be Poor?

I had an interesting discussion with friend this week-end. We were dining at a trendy local restaurant during their "Happy Hour," (4 pm to 6 pm) taking advantage of the daily $5 cocktail special, the $4 Fontina Burger, and the $2 sweet potato fries.

She is 66 and thinking of retiring in another year or so.

She was comparing her financial situation to that of a much older sister who retired in 1999. Both have limited savings. Both have reduced lifestyles.

But my friend says it is much easier to be poor these days. When she suggests having dinner during "Happy Hour," as she did with me, folks no longer pity her or object. Like me, they are happy to comply.

But her sister had to watch her pennies at a time when no one else was. Her sister's friends were flying to Tahoe to ski, had vacation homes, and travelled at will. They either had no money worries or refused to acknowledge them. Either way, her sister felt like she was the only one behaving frugally.

Nowadays, frugality is practically the national pasttime. My friend is not seen as cheap, but smart.

I found her point of view interesting and, quite possibly, correct. I do know that I am less envious than I used to be of those with money. It seems like the recession has equalized the playing field and I don't feel as much the "odd person out."

27 comments:

Morrison said...

Obama promised that the wealth was going to be shared. He accomplished this within a year.

The rich are fleeing this country in record numbers. With them they take their jobs (poor people can't offer employment to anyone), their tax revenues, their benevolence, etc. etc. Who do you think helped fund the poor welfare programs, UI benefits, food stamps, social services, section 8, etc, etc? The poor classes or the rich classes? The poorer classes don't pay any taxes, so it's the richer classes who pay the taxes. Why do you think Obama targets them?

As the rich leave, and the demand for entitlement benefits increase, who do you think is going to be stuck paying the bills? The middle class. Think we're 'poor' now? Just wait. Poverty is going to be a normal thing in this country. We ain't seen nothing yet.

Grace, every day I feel poorer and poorer and poorer. It's despicable and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. Except leave this country. Even the tax free states are raising taxes.

But where would I go?

Nowhere.

So, I stay and pay and pay and complain and complain. It used to be fun & hip to be frugal. Now, it's survival.

Florence said...

I am always happy to hear that people are becoming more frugal! There is always so much stress when people are trying to keep up with the Joneses. Frugal activities tend not only to be better for the pocketbook but also healthier and less damaging on the environment. Being frugal lights up creativity and imagination. I hope that it doesn't become just another passing fancy. Sounds like you and your friend had a great visit at a really good price.

Anonymous said...

yet you just came back from paris, all paid for by your own rich sister? frugality is great when it's voluntary. forced frugality is poverty under a different banner. would you feel beter if everyone lived in 600 sq ft homes, had 1.5 children, only ate meat on the 2nd wednesday of the month and earned no more than $28K a year?

if everybody on the planet only went to bars during happy hours, do you think we'd stll have happy hours? happy hr is to get people into a bar during the slowest time in the day. if everyone went to matinees to save a buc, would the theater offer discounted matinees anymore?

frugality does not make you healthier. you need money to buy good, low fat, foods & meats. you need money to go to the dentist, eye exam, buy vitamins and other health needs. you need money to get health insurance, even the government sponsored health care kind. people in the inner cities can not have vegetable gardens.

the longer you stay at frugality the closer you get to poverty.

Anonymous said...

@ Morrison

Where are the rich fleeing to? Most, if not all, developed countries have far higher tax rates for the wealthy than the U.S. If the "poor classes" never paid taxes and so it's the "richer classes" who do, why blame Obama for "targeting" the rich?

Morrison said...

There are many European countries that welcome the rich. The first one that comes to mind is Monte Carlo. Google it and you will be aghast at the multitude of richness the country welcomes. Also, there is Dubai, Switzerland, the Bahamas and some other countries, to name a few. Low taxes are the draw. As the countries draw in the rich, the countries improve. Just try to get a hotel room in Monte Carlo and you'll see. The rich bring with them jobs and money. Most of the residents of Monte Carlo, including the lowly workers are very well off.

If you exist in a rich world and live among them, you become rich and wealthy yourself. It's the complete opposite when you reside with the poor.

If the rich keep leaving America, eventually the poorer classes will have to start paying taxes to make up the deficit. This will devastate them even more.

Think of it this way: if you have ever grown up living in a ghetto or in a poor community, you will know how hard it is to get out of poverty. It's handed down from generation to generation. If Obama keeps sucking off the rich, America will keep getting poorer and poorer. I can feel this happening. Eventually we will all slide into a 'ghetto' type of environment and it will be difficult for any of us to get ourselves up and out and onto better things. Plus, we may just lose our drive and ambition, as Grace pointed out, it's a good time to be poor right now in America. If more and more people feel like that, well, let's call it the beginning of the 'ghetto' slide then.

If you lower taxes on the rich and create a more welcoming environment, they remain. The rich bring with them the jobs, the revenue and yes, they do pay a large percentage of the taxes anyway. The people that the rich employ pay taxes. The states and feds get their revenue and everyone makes a living. It's when jealosy and greed come into the picture that everything gets distorted. The poorer classes wanted to own McMansions, Lexus, Rolexes etc. etc. just like the richer classes, and well, we all know what happened: The Great Recession.

I understand there is much unhappiness in America and a lot of finger pointing is going on but draining the Golden Goose is not going to bring back prosperity or jobs.

IMHO.

Grace can tell you, Paris only houses the very rich. The poorer classes are shuttered to the suburbs. There are always riots and unrest in these parts. I know, because one day while I was in Paris, I took the wrong train and wound up there!

Here in my city of New York, it's much different. The rich and the poor live side by side. Affordable housing stands next to affluent apartments. One status class helps the other status class. We all rise up together. But the rich are leaving NYC in droves and all that is left are the poorer classes, the lost revenue (NYC lost over $60billion in lost tax revenues). Our services are being cut, subways, metro, social services, library hours, school programs, etc. all being cut or eliminated. Today, our Gov told us no one will be able to get their tax refund till June. Maybe. Because NY state has no money.

Ugh.

Retired Syd said...

Grace:

I couldn't agree more and made this very same observation back in January of last year: http://tinyurl.com/7dexwe (I mention this because, my first year of retirement was Bush's last year in office, so too early to blame Obama for this phenomenon . . .)

I used to be one of those people that had money to burn back when I was working, and I know, frustrated some of my friends who felt like we just didn't understand.

Now, not only do I understand because I'm living on a nest egg that needs to last about 50 years, I'm appreciative that we're all in the same boat these days. The days of reckless spending are gone and so without having to "keep up with the Joneses" we can all just have a great time together within the same budgetary restrictions!

Sure makes it easier for this retiree!

Retired Syd said...

P.S. Here in my neck of the woods (Silicon Valley), the rich certainly aren't fleeing. Luckily, they aren't really my social set, so no pressure for this retiree to keep up!

Anonymous said...

Uh, Ret Syd, you should get out more and start reading. First off, California is bankrupt. The government can't pay it's bills. You have 13% unemployment in the state. Over $23 billion in debts that gov swartz can't pay. CA is being called the new 'black hole'. swartz is holding off health insurance co who are gunning to raise health care a whopping 39%.

As to Silicon Valley, according to the 2010 Silicon Valley Index, over 90,000 jobs were lost there alone in 2009. And the cuts just keep on coming. Companies, like even Apple Inc are moving to Nevada. Check this out retired girl:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10451595-92.html

To add to CA woes, is the drought and the drag it's being on the agriculture industry, the swelling immigration (and social service demands that can not be met) the downsizing in defense & aerospace, the scheduled military base closings, the vast construction cutbacks.

You probably don't notice this because you yourself are already broke and poor as is most of your friends. There aren't any joneses left in the state to keep up with anyway.

Why didn't you stay in a hotel when you went on vacation? you house swapped? Why? Because you couldn't afford it. You also had to go to all the freebie stuff in the city. You call that living? You're doing things broke people are forced to do. Why? Because you're broke yourself but you just haven't noticed.

I'd like to see how your 'nest egg' looks in just 5 years from now after you start paying that 39+% health insurance increase, the added taxes, fees, VATS and whatever else the CA morons can come up with.

MasterPo said...

MasterPo agrees with Morrison.

:-((

Chad said...

@ Morrison

Enough with your bogus trickle down economic theories. It's called the Laffer Curve for a number of reasons.

Also, Ex-Pats still have to pay U.S. taxes. Only the first $80k or so earned overseas is exempt from U.S. taxes, and then only if you live in that country for 330 days of that year. Thus, if you are trully rich the majority of your income will still be taxable by the U.S. even if you live in Monte Carlo.

Of course, you could hide your income, which is illegal. However, Switzerland isn't a great place anymore as any rich person hiding income at UBS is learning.

The only way you can trully get out of U.S. taxes would be to renounce your U.S. citizenship. Virtually no one is renouncing their U.S. citizenship for a ton of good reasons.

One reason would be that foreign owners of U.S. companies have a lot more restrictions and hurdles to overcome. This would be a huge problem, as one would assume the rich U.S. citizen would have gotten rich by mostly owning some type of U.S. company.

Another good reason is that renouncing your U.S. citizenship to avoid taxes is illegal. This would make owning a U.S. company difficult to say the least.

Also, the idea that all of the rich get taxed at a higher rate compared to middle class/poor is ludicrous. Warren Buffett has blatantly said it is unfair his secretary pays a higher tax rate than him. Of course, he gets most of his income from dividends, so his statement would only apply to that part of the rich spectrum.

Quit spouting your beliefs, as beliefs are useless. I only want facts and you are providing none.

Morrison said...

Well, Chad, here's a fact: The US govt, as well as the states have been busy this past year taxing the rich. How has that worked out for them? Have they collected more in revenue? No. Seems like the drop in tax revenue has now forced many states, as well as the US government to stop hiring and start firing.

Warren Buffet is an idiot. How much money has that has-been billionaire lost this past year that he got beat out by a Mexican (Carlos Slim) as the #1 richest person on the planet? Buffet is an Obama a$$ kisser and I wouldn't listen to a single word he says.

Taxing the rich doesn't work.

That's your fact and proof.

Chad said...

@ Morrison

First, you didn't refute one of my facts.

Secondly, you need to look up the definition of fact and opinion, as you are still providing an opinion, not a fact, in your previous statement.

Now on to your poor logic and even poorer definition of “fact”:

"The rich are fleeing this country in record numbers."

As I have already pointed out it doesn’t matter if they flee or not, as they will still be taxed. Thus, if they are fleeing it’s not because of taxes.

"The US govt, as well as the states have been busy this past year taxing the rich. How has that worked out for them? Have they collected more in revenue? No."

That statement alone proves you know nothing about this subject. Why? Because, if your statement was true then the only variable for how much tax revenue is collected is how the rich are taxed. It doesn’t matter that the economy was in the worst downturn since the Great Depression? Naw…that doesn’t matter at all (sarcasm, look up the definition).

On top of that, the two biggest income areas for the rich are dividends and capital gains. Neither of these areas saw a tax increase in 2009. The increase isn’t scheduled until 2010.

Also, the income tax rates between 2008 and 2009 remain the almost exactly the same. The two highest are still 33% and 35%. The only significant change is the cutoff for the 33% bracket was raised from $357k to $372k. This means a few new people are now in the 33% bracket rather than the 35%, but also a few people dropped out of the bottom of the 33% tax bracket to the 28% bracket because the minimum was raised about $7k. None of these changes would increase the amount of income tax paid by the rich, in fact there was a slightly abnormal jump in the maximum cutoff for the 33% tax bracket giving a handful of rich people a slight tax break by pulling them out of the 35% bracket to the 33% (note these rates are for single filers)

What does all of this mean? No significant changes in taxing the rich in any of the top three areas of income. Thus, I don’t see how the rich are being taxed more this year by any significant amount.

"Taxing the rich doesn't work."

No, over taxing the rich, or anyone, else doesn't work, but you obviously have no idea why because your reasons make no sense given the facts. Opinions and beliefs have no place here.


“Warren Buffet is an idiot. How much money has that has-been billionaire lost this past year that he got beat out by a Mexican (Carlos Slim) as the #1 richest person on the planet?”

Ok, so now being the #3 richest man in the world is failure? And, you suggest he lost money as a “has-been billionaire.” Well, let’s find the facts again. Per Forbes Mr. Buffett’s wealth went UP $10 billion in the past 12 months and Berkshire Hathaway’s book value went up 19.8%. The facts show he hasn’t lost money and has actually done quite well during this rough time.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/10/billionaires-2010_Warren-Buffett_C0R3.html

Your beliefs and opinions are useless, bring the facts next time. Now that is really your “fact and proof.”

Morrison said...

Chad, I have no patience for someone like you. Just google 'rich flee america' and here's what you get:

Rich flee Maryland:
http://blog.pappastax.com/index.php/2010/03/12/rich-marylanders-strongly-flee-the-state-while-gently-saying-goodbye-to-high-taxes/

Rich flee New Jersey:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4002735/rich-flee-high-taxes-in-new-jersey/?playlist_id=87249

Rich Flee New York:
http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2009/10/rich-leaving-new-york-in-record-numbers.html

Rich are leaving California for Nevada and Florida:
http://www.speakoutca.org/weblog/2009/07/are-rich-people.html

I could go through all the states, but you get the idea. As the states raise taxes on the rich, they just up and leave and go somewhere else. You can rest assured that if it keeps up like this, they'll gladly give up their citizenship. What's to stop them? America ain't such a great place anymore or haven't you noticed?

Warren Buffet has been listed as the biggest loser of all billionaires:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/33107708/Warren_Buffett_Loses_10_Billion_But_Keeps_Runner_Up_Ranking_in_Forbes_400

Buffet lost $50billion in '08 and $10bill in '09. He's been beaten out by Carlos Slim, a Mexican, who made his fortune in Pesos and when counted out in devalued American bucks, still beat out Warren Buffet. Doesn't say much for Warren. Warren lost $1.1million dollars an hour.

Doesn't sound like Warren Buffet is too smart of a man to me.

I don't have to give anyone the facts.

Just google it and read it for yourself.

I stopped reading fairy tales decades ago.

Morrison said...

PS: as for being #3, here's a good comparison: America used to be #1. Now, thanks to China, India and Japan, America is probably down to #3.

Ain't no whoop, right Chad? We shouldn't feel like a failure if we're number 3, if I follow your logic, right?

Chad said...

Continued (too long for one post):

"PS: as for being #3, here's a good comparison: America used to be #1. Now, thanks to China, India and Japan, America is probably down to #3."

Down to #3 on what measurement? GDP? Nope. The U.S. still has an economy almost 4 times larger than Japan or China….the two closest competitors. Manufacturing? No, but close…U.S. still $40-50 billion more than China with only 25% of China’s population. Largest stock markets? Nope…NYSE $9 trillion vs. China’s HKEX and SSE totaling almost $4 trillion. I’m not making a case to say the U.S. isn’t in trouble, it definitely is, but again use facts. At this time by any measure the U.S. is still #1. Though, I agree it is fading, but it is fading because people rely on beliefs….not facts.

Concerning Buffett. We are actually both quoting facts (congratulations you found some!). You are quoting from a CNBC article that lists Buffett as #2 and Gates #1, which is quoting last year’s Forbes Richest List. Mine is quoting this year’s Forbes Richest List, which has Buffett at #3. See, this is how a real argument is done. I can see a legit case for suggesting that Buffett lost a little magic. However, a case can be made the other way, and Buffett has lost before only to come roaring back. Again, this argument doesn’t help either of arguments, but it is closer to being a legit argument, as you brought real facts.

The fascinating thing is that I am closer to your side of this argument (less taxes…though, I only think this is better in certain conditions) than the other. I just can’t stand poor reasoning or beliefs being used as pseudo facts.

Quoting you, “I don't have to give anyone the facts.”

Nope, and this is why we are in this mess. Everyone relies on beliefs and ignores the facts.

Chad said...

@ Morrison
Ok, now that I proved that the U.S. tax rates aren’t increasing this year and driving the rich to Monte Carlo you switch to a new argument and say they are moving to other states! Those bastard Americans thinking they can live in any state. Of course, all of the states just happen to be part of the U.S. and, thus, part of the Federal tax system….hmmmm. Still taxed by Uncle Sam and not leaving for Monte Carlo. Thus, your initial arguments don’t hold water and now you are trying to sure up the New Orleans levies around your argument (by the way there is a legit argument on your side).

On to the states!

“As the states raise taxes on the rich, they just up and leave and go somewhere else. You can rest assured that if it keeps up like this, they'll gladly give up their citizenship. What's to stop them? America ain't such a great place anymore or haven't you noticed?”

I agree. They definitely move between states for tax purposes, but also for other reasons. The articles fail to do a full analysis of the people leaving. They could all be leaving just because of taxes. I agree they could, and some probably are. However, there is never one reason behind any demographic like this. Could some of them be retirees? Sure. New York/NYC and New Jersey have both been highly populated for a long time and have a ton of baby boomers and older (same for Jersey). Could some others have lost their jobs during the worst downturn in since the Great Depression? Yes, so they could be moving to stay with family or find new jobs, as New York/NYC can be rather expensive on unemployment. Or, they could be moving to one of the states you say they are fleeing from…New Jersey (your first link):

New York Post article you link to, “…the Sunshine and Garden States were winners. more than 250,000 New Yorkers who lived in and around the city fled to Florida. Another 172,000 city taxpayers ended up in New Jersey.” http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/tax_refugees_staging_escape_from_qb4pItQ71UXIc0i6cd3UpK

So, 250k of the people “fleeing” could be retirees, as they are going to Florida, and 172k are “fleeing” to New Jersey, as supposed others “flee” New Jersey.

New York Post article you link to, “The average Manhattan taxpayer who left the state earned $93,264 a year. The average newcomer to Manhattan earned only $72,726.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/tax_refugees_staging_escape_from_qb4pItQ71UXIc0i6cd3UpK#ixzz0iTq4bABe

It isn’t surprising at all that people who had probably lived in New York/NYC for at least a few years are being replaced by people who make less. However, this is again a bad analysis. This is comparing apples to oranges. The correct analysis would have to determine if the vacant high paying positions were filled. If they were filled they were probably filled by experienced professionals who have already lived there for a few years. These people would move up and everyone below them would move up and magically the low end money positions are open, so the new people moving to the area, who are traditionally younger and less experienced, fill those positions….ta-da! This is what’s called good analysis. It doesn’t support either of our positions, and it might not be correct as I don’t have the data to support or refute it, but it does make the article look like garbage.

The Maryland article is legit and the only one written by a professional. I agree with that one.

Quoting you, “You can rest assured that if it keeps up like this, they'll gladly give up their citizenship. What's to stop them?”

All of the reasons I listed in my previous posts that you haven’t refuted. Plus, others.

Morrison said...

Chad,
If a person googles you, they will find out you are a financial person residing in Washington, D.C. You haven't posted on your own blog since August 2009, yet you leave comments at various other blogs.

The fact that you live & reside in Washington, D.C. is self explanatory. (hint: what do people thing of Washington, D.C. right about now?)

So, let's just talk from my own experience being born & raised in New York. The high paying jobs are gone. The workers who filled these high paying jobs have left the state. The exodus started increasing around November 2007. As our Governor Paterson stated, he tried to stop Albany from raising taxes on the rich for fear of the exodus. Albany went ahead with taxing the rich, thus the exodus and NY now suffers from billions of dollars in lost tax revenue. Brilliant. The Wall Street high paying jobs are gone and the lower income people are moving in and taking less paying jobs. Life in NY is declining. I personally see it when I walk the streets of Manhattan. The once powerful, luxurious shopping haven of 5th Avenue is filled to the brim with vacant stores. When the rich leave, the remaining lower classes will not be buying Prada handbags. The whole entire state of New York is in decline.
I have several personal friends who have sold their homes in the Hamptons, LI, NY and have moved to permanent locations outside of the US. They have moved to Costa Rica and Chile (inland above the earthquake) They have absolutely no problems giving up their citizenship. I have other friends who have moved to Israel.

As to my own self, NY passed 2 new taxes on my business. One taxes my gross sales. The other taxes my gross salaries. Guess what I did? I closed my f***king business down, thus NY gets NO revenue from me, nor do I have any employees. How's that? Think I'm the only one who did such a thing? Nope. There are probably hundreds more small companies shutting down due to the increases in taxes.

I have the option of moving to Italy. My father was born there and retained his citizenship. That entitles me, my husband, children, sisters and brothers the same Italian citizenship with ALL the benefits of free health care and retirement benefits.

If America and the current admin continues to tax the rich, raise my taxes and make my life miserable, you can bet on the fact that I will indeed go back to Italy and reside there and give up my citizenship willingly and without batting an eyelash. Am I the only one who thinks like this? Absolutely NOT! There are thousands of other people who think just like me. So, just as the states see an exodus, thus will America and the federal government also.

Glenn Beck has a book out entitled 'How To Argue With Idiots'. You should go buy that book, read it, and then talk to yourself in the mirror.

Americans are getting poorer and poorer each and every day. I do not want to accept that fate. I do NOT think it is a good time to be poor. That was the original post idea, as written by Grace. It's called 'distribution of wealth' which Obama stated quite clearly before he got elected (to Joe The Plumber) that that was what Obama was going to do. Obama did not lie to the American citizens.

Now, that it's done, neither I nor any other American citizen has to sit idle and take it. We still have options. We can leave. And please don't be so presumptuious that people will not leave. The rich and the talented will indeed flee. And you can take all your charts, figures, facts or whatever and well........ you get the idea. Shove it.

Chad said...

Yes, I live in DC. No, I don’t work for the government, so why would people think poorly of me? Talk about broad incorrect assumptions. Also, who cares if I haven’t posted on my own blog, but still make comments on other blogs? Is that a secret internet rule? Again, an argument of yours that makes no sense.

Again and again, you ignore all the facts I bring up disproving your argument and move on. Interesting how a slight change in the topic occurs every time I disprove one of your rogue theories. First, it was everyone is fleeing the U.S. because of taxes, and after I disproved that you said everyone was fleeing states because of taxes, and after I poked holes in some of that (Maryland was legit, but they aren’t moving out of the U.S.) you changed it to personal stories, which are impossible to validate.

By the way, the store closings in NYC can be tied to numerous factors larger than the rich moving because of taxes. Maybe the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression…just a thought.

I don’t disagree that the wealthy move for tax reasons. What I disagree with are all your opinions about it, as none of them are currently backed up by facts (as I proved in my previous posts). I also stated, in a previous post, there was a legit argument on your side, but you were failing to find it.

“If America and the current admin continues to tax the rich, raise my taxes and make my life miserable, you can bet on the fact that I will indeed go back to Italy and reside there and give up my citizenship willingly and without batting an eyelash. Am I the only one who thinks like this? Absolutely NOT! There are thousands of other people who think just like me. So, just as the states see an exodus, thus will America and the federal government also.”

Again…as I proved earlier the current administration isn’t taxing the rich any heavier, yet. I agree it is likely to happen, but it isn’t happening yet.

Interesting that your final sentence in the above paragraph, “…states see an exodus, thus will America and the federal government also”, contradicts your very first comment, “The rich are fleeing this country in record numbers.” Either U.S. citizens are fleeing this country or they might be in the future if taxes are raised…which is it?

The scary part is there are thousands of people who think like you…see below for why.

“And you can take all your charts, figures, facts or whatever and well........ you get the idea. Shove it.”

Facts and information have no place in deciding policy? I get the idea? The only idea I see is that you make up stuff to support your beliefs, and you think anger adds to an argument.

Oh, and somehow Italy has lower taxes than the U.S.? Highest U.S. income tax rate...35%. Highest Italian income tax rate...43% on a much lower income (more people will be taxed at this rate than the U.S. highest rate). Yep, let's keep the facts out of any decisions.

Morrison said...

Hey Chad!
Here's an interesting article in today's NY Post newspaper:
http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/end_exit_for_ad_king_jerry_niz8b5kwTZk9LUconAUpcI

Apparently, Jerry Della Femina, biggest ad tycoon in the world, is selling his $40million East Hampton house and will be spending his time in Italy's Tuscany or Capri because of Obama passing the health care bill. Femina says he has to hurry up and sell before Obama takes any more of his wealth!

Nah. The rich ain't fleeing America. It's just a mirage.

Note: Della Femina was part of the liberal loons who got Obama elected in the first place. LOL.

Chad said...

Not much meat on that story so we have no details, but selling that house and "summering in Tuscany", per his quote in the article, won't reduce his federal tax bill at all. See my previous comments for why.

I love how you ignored, yet again, everything I proved previously, and all your previous contradictory statements.

Nice alliteration with the "liberal loons" line...impressively clever (that line was probably fairly hard to read with all the sarcasm dripping from it). Good to see you are part of the problem with our political parties...angry people with no idea how anything actually works.

Again, I agree that people will make certain decisions based on taxes, and some will move out of the U.S. if taxes are increased past a certain point, but you fail to use pertinent facts to back up your argument...as I proved yet again.

Morrison said...

OMG! I never said "EVERYONE' is leaving anywhere or anyplace.

your quote: "First, it was everyone is fleeing the U.S. because of taxes, and after I disproved that you said everyone was fleeing states because of taxes, and after I poked holes in some of that (Maryland was legit, but they aren’t moving out of the U.S.) you changed it to personal stories, which are impossible to validate"

I also never said Italy was better than nor had less taxes than the US of A. But it sure the heck has better food than US of A! (but that's personal opinion and palatte).

You have serious serious problems, Chad. IMHO. How else can you explain your constant rebuttals. What are you proving? You don't work for the government? Most people in Washington D.C. do. You feel like you were born with a debt hanging around your neck and you have to work to free yourself out of it (as per your old blog)?

People are leaving the states and are leaving the country of America because they don't like what is going on here and they don't like the additional taxes coming their way, now or in the planned future. Period. Gov Christie of NJ and Gov Paterson of NY have both verbally expressed their knowledge that taxing the rich, as they have been doing, hasn't been working out for them as they had hoped and planned. Why? Because the number of rich folks have exited the state, thus their revenues are down.
Today, Jerry Della Femina (and all those rich cronies of his stick together) has announced he is leaving America and selling his NY property to flee the upcoming taxes Obama has planned to levy on the richer classes. You fool yourself if you think the rich can't find a way around the taxes. When Femina goes, he'll be taking some of his rich friends with him. Most rich classes like to stick together. Maybe if you got your head out of a book and lived in a real life, you would know these things.

Does it really matter to anyone if I am right, accurate, exact and to the point? Why would a complete stranger waste his time to discredit or disprove anything I say? I have found that on my own blog, if I say something about healthcare (as an example) all of a sudden all these so-called doctors and nurses come out of the woodwork to prove me wrong.

As if?

Who cares?

Only a government agent would care or some Obama fanatic. The fact that your blog hasn't been updated or maintained makes you suspect. You don't make logical sense. You don't appear to be normal. Why would a layperson waste or spend his or her time on this subject or any other subject unless there was an ulterior motive? Makes one wonder. And it's alright to wonder, isn't it Chad?

The fact that you have spent so much time on this convinces me that what I have been saying is correct and true. If I were an idiot, you wouldn't even counteract me at all. Liberals try to discredit anyone who speaks out or voices an opinion that is contrary to their own.

It really doesn't matter what I say, how it's proved or what facts can back me up. People know the truth. They see it each and every day with their own eyes. People are leaving high tax states in exchange for lower tax states. And now with Obamacare and the prospect that multimillionaires ($5mill+) will face more than a quarter more million in taxes ($257,000 approx), these people are preparing to leave America. Sorry, Chad. Tell your boss these folk ain't gonna stay here and take it.

And with them, they take all that lovely tax revenue with them. One thing the rich aren't and that's 'stupid'.

Anonymous said...

Mor, I think I figured it out for you. Obama's whole platform for his justification of passing sweeping changes in America, such as Health Care and other laws, is that he is having it funded through taxing the rich. So, here you come along and attempt to disprove the theory that taxing the rich will not work because the rich are leaving. The Democrats don't want this knowledge to be revealed, so they attempt to disprove you. Just give it time. Truth will out. Eventually, the Democrats won't be able to conceal it much longer.
I agree with you. Chad sounds like a government employee of some kind. Who else would think they get born in to the world with debt hanging round their neck?

I

Anonymous said...

CAN U BELIEVE IRS STATISTICS?

Fact:
The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers pay more than one third (40.4%) of all federal individual income taxes collected. (Source: IRS)

Fact:
The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers earn just over one fifth (22.8%) of all federally taxable individual income. (Source: IRS)

Fact:
The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers pay more than half again (60.0%) more of the total individual income tax load than they did when President Reagan left office (1989 tax year). (Source: IRS)

Fact:
The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers are facing frivolous lawsuits in phenomenal numbers, simply because our lax tort laws make them easy targets of opportunity.

Fact:
The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers are in more danger of government seizure (forfeiture*) of their private property than ever before in our history, due in part, to the Patriot Act.

Fact:
The top-earning 1% of US taxpayers are Leaving the USA at the highest rate in history. (Source: INS/Census Bureau estimates)

An insidious, creeping cancer is eating away at our economy. Not only the Income Tax, but other legislative and regulatory attacks on wealth are forcing many of the people who pay the lion's share of taxes, to leave the United States and because of some of that legislation, they are now taking their wealth with them, thus very disproportionately reducing the tax and investment base in the United States.


The facts cited throughout this article are based upon statistics and calculations derived from data released by the US Internal Revenue Service, the US Census Bureau and supported by other reputable sources. Links are provided to the source data, throughout this article. We ask you to note the impeccable sources of the statistics presented here, since it is the integrity of those sources, as well as their variety, that seals the case.

We invite you to follow the links provided and see for yourself. The facts are real and cannot be denied. Examine the numbers, use your own assumptions and do the math for yourself. When you recalculate the numbers, using your own assumptions, you will see just how serious the problem really is. It's real and it's daunting and it could very well spell disaster for the US economy, if certain positive actions are not soon taken.

The percentages cited above are not some bureaucrat's pie-in-the-sky projections, but rather, they are the totals of actual IRS receipts, that are released every year, roughly 18 months after the close of each tax year. A link to the file on the IRS web site, containing the raw IRS data for this year (in Excel format) and an explanation of it can be found in the the companion article to this article, "1986-2007 IRS Collections Data by Income Category" (www.ActionAmerica.org/taxecon/irsdata.shtml).

Chad said...

You caught us. President Obama, or should I say Congressman Obama, had me start my blog years ago, so it would look authentic when we had to convince ONE lone anti-fact person how their arguments fail to be backed up by anything.

I'm the one with the problem?

Morrison said...

Chad,
You started your blog May 2008. Right around the time Obama was becoming a 'thing'.

And that's Senator Obama.

You didn't even get that fact right either.

Morrison said...

Readers should note:

Chad's website:
http://www.sentientmoney.com/

has been deleted on 3/29/10.

Any questions? I didn't think so.

Chad, as in 'c h a d' when they were recounting G.W. Bush's vs Al Gore 2000 election votes in Florida.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.